Are you suitably guilty?
Thursday, March 6th, 2003 04:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
caddymanIn his latest meme, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
pax_draconis included the original and interesting question of post-Imperial guilt.
Of course, at the time when I was filling out the meme, I did so in a deliberately facetious way just to pass time and have a giggle. I thought no more about it.
But now with the spread of the meme (a memaspora?) around the good people whose journals I read, I note that there is a surprising number of the UK people who claim to 'suffer' (it that is the mot juste) from post-Imperial guilt in one manner or another.
I find this surprising, since I myself do not - that was one of my less facetious answers to the meme; largely because I couldn't think of anything witty. Anyway, since a significant sample of people whom I like and respect, if not necessarily always agree with, feel this 'guilt' it started me thinking on the nature of guilt and consequences.
My dictionary defines guilt as follows:
1 The fact or state of having done wrong or committed an offence.
2 Responsibility for a criminal or moral offence deserving punishment or a penalty.
3 Remorse or self-reproach caused by a feeling that one is responsible for a wrong or offence.
4 (Archaic) sin, or crime.
Now, as the Empire was being created it was not, by the mores of the day, a moral problem, and certainly, it was not a legal crime. It was not, overall, profitable for the country in strict economic terms -although many individual fortunes were made (and lost) because of the Empire. Gladstone, the Grand Old Man kept trying to give away huge chunks of it and prevent the acquisition of more because it was such an enormous drain on resources. Government in and of itself, is not a profitable business, and governing, policing, maintaining and defending an empire costs more than it brings in from taxes.
Once the empire was up and running, so to speak, it was not on the whole run to the detriment of the locals - at least by the standards of the time. Don't get me wrong, the concept of White-European superiority is as much as an abhorrence as any other examples of bigotry, and maybe more so. But at the time, it was not perceived in such a way. We are being unfair both to ourselves and our ancestors if we judge them by twenty-first century standards. We live in a world of infinitely greater comfort and wealth than did they. We have a longer life expectancy. In every material if not necessarily spiritual measure, now is better than then. And it is better than then because of the cumulative efforts of the pre-imperial, imperial and post imperial generations.
Who are we to judge their actions by our standards when we have the luxury to develop our standards only because of the efforts across the centuries of those generations?
Should we call our forebears criminals just because society and its values have changed, moved on and developed? Especially when we look at the modern world and see that we are making no better job of running the planet than did they.
Many of their mistakes our ours, too. Ours may, in fact, be worse for we think we understand what they did not and yet we continue, extend and improve the commission of these 'crimes.' We are cheerfully mechanising and expanding the problem into arenas, such as the environment, which were not recognised as problems by earlier generations. At the same time, we are building on their legacy by failing to learn the lessons they taught.
No, as soon as fashions, morals and ethics changed, we dismantled the Empire and transformed it into the Commonwealth. That is an achievement to be proud of, not a sin to feel guilty about.
Post-Imperial Guilt? No. Never. Not once, not even on holiday.
Post-millennial angst? Every time I turn on the TV news. Let's judge our own generation by our own codes without sitting in moral and hypocritical judgement on our ancestors.
We inherited a flawed world from them. At the rate we're going, there may be nothing for our kids to inherit from us.
Who, then, should feel guilty about what?
Feel free to read, skip, or debate.
It's not aimed at anybody and it's not meant to offend. But it may start an interesting debate.
Or not.
The choice is yours.
pax_draconis included the original and interesting question of post-Imperial guilt.Of course, at the time when I was filling out the meme, I did so in a deliberately facetious way just to pass time and have a giggle. I thought no more about it.
But now with the spread of the meme (a memaspora?) around the good people whose journals I read, I note that there is a surprising number of the UK people who claim to 'suffer' (it that is the mot juste) from post-Imperial guilt in one manner or another.
I find this surprising, since I myself do not - that was one of my less facetious answers to the meme; largely because I couldn't think of anything witty. Anyway, since a significant sample of people whom I like and respect, if not necessarily always agree with, feel this 'guilt' it started me thinking on the nature of guilt and consequences.
My dictionary defines guilt as follows:
1 The fact or state of having done wrong or committed an offence.
2 Responsibility for a criminal or moral offence deserving punishment or a penalty.
3 Remorse or self-reproach caused by a feeling that one is responsible for a wrong or offence.
4 (Archaic) sin, or crime.
Now, as the Empire was being created it was not, by the mores of the day, a moral problem, and certainly, it was not a legal crime. It was not, overall, profitable for the country in strict economic terms -although many individual fortunes were made (and lost) because of the Empire. Gladstone, the Grand Old Man kept trying to give away huge chunks of it and prevent the acquisition of more because it was such an enormous drain on resources. Government in and of itself, is not a profitable business, and governing, policing, maintaining and defending an empire costs more than it brings in from taxes.
Once the empire was up and running, so to speak, it was not on the whole run to the detriment of the locals - at least by the standards of the time. Don't get me wrong, the concept of White-European superiority is as much as an abhorrence as any other examples of bigotry, and maybe more so. But at the time, it was not perceived in such a way. We are being unfair both to ourselves and our ancestors if we judge them by twenty-first century standards. We live in a world of infinitely greater comfort and wealth than did they. We have a longer life expectancy. In every material if not necessarily spiritual measure, now is better than then. And it is better than then because of the cumulative efforts of the pre-imperial, imperial and post imperial generations.
Who are we to judge their actions by our standards when we have the luxury to develop our standards only because of the efforts across the centuries of those generations?
Should we call our forebears criminals just because society and its values have changed, moved on and developed? Especially when we look at the modern world and see that we are making no better job of running the planet than did they.
Many of their mistakes our ours, too. Ours may, in fact, be worse for we think we understand what they did not and yet we continue, extend and improve the commission of these 'crimes.' We are cheerfully mechanising and expanding the problem into arenas, such as the environment, which were not recognised as problems by earlier generations. At the same time, we are building on their legacy by failing to learn the lessons they taught.
No, as soon as fashions, morals and ethics changed, we dismantled the Empire and transformed it into the Commonwealth. That is an achievement to be proud of, not a sin to feel guilty about.
Post-Imperial Guilt? No. Never. Not once, not even on holiday.
Post-millennial angst? Every time I turn on the TV news. Let's judge our own generation by our own codes without sitting in moral and hypocritical judgement on our ancestors.
We inherited a flawed world from them. At the rate we're going, there may be nothing for our kids to inherit from us.
Who, then, should feel guilty about what?
Feel free to read, skip, or debate.
It's not aimed at anybody and it's not meant to offend. But it may start an interesting debate.
Or not.
The choice is yours.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2003-03-06 09:46 am (UTC)it is not a question of whether Imperialism was "right at the time" it is a question that one culture chose to supercede another...(or indeed several)...based on their own criteria of superiority rather than an assesment using the other cultures judgment system
yes I guess my viewpoint is probably anti-darwinian or something
(no subject)
Date: 2003-03-06 10:10 am (UTC)I find myself completely unable to feel guilty for other peoples' actions where I have never had the chance to influence those actions. I am quite prepared to feel guilty at my own choice of action orinaction if I think I should have tried to prevent something I could influence.
I could not and cannot influence the facts of my birth, race, species, genus or whatever. So I cannot feel guilty about that and neither, I submit, should anyone else.
If someone doesn't like where their race/species is going or how it is developing, then it is probably incumbent on that person to try to make a difference. If that person feels strongly enough but fails to try, then guilt is probably an appropriate reaction. If the person tries their damndnest and fails, that is probably cause for regret, not guilt.
The point about guilt is taking responsibility for your own choices where you have a choice. If there is no choice, there may be distaste, regret or any other number of appropriate responses.
Guilt? No.
Thankyou Bryan...
Guilt?
Date: 2003-03-06 10:35 am (UTC)It would be nice to think that we had grown out of bettering our little country at the expense of others, but here is just one of many examples that proves we aint. John Pilger article on East Timor
Now of course none of this is my fault. I never said my government could sell weapons to beat up the East Timorese, I was only just born that year. However, I live in a country prosperous as a result of many downright evil actions. I reap the benefits of that. That I feel bad about. I hate the whole England as the nation representing Fair Play myth. England as a nation is quite frankly a downright evil bastard.
thats perfectly rational
Date: 2003-03-06 10:40 am (UTC)and the only choice I can see to make is not to procreate - a choice I have decided to take... however I have no rational grasp of what I can or cannot influence I *should* (as in my warped brain says I should) be able to influence whatever the hell I like - therefore if I fail I will feel guilty... and yes Cam explained it its less about guilt for what was done than guilt that I continue to reap the benefit now of - for example a mostly english speaking world that gives me vast advantages
Re: Guilt?
Date: 2003-03-06 11:53 am (UTC)Now that is a quite breath-taking statement!
provocative baggy
Date: 2003-03-06 03:53 pm (UTC)Re: thats perfectly rational
Date: 2003-03-06 04:44 pm (UTC)My point, I think is quite simply this: life is quite difficult enough coping with our own errors of commisiion and ommission without unnecessarily adding to them by worrying or feeling guilty about things we cannot influence.
I regret and abhor many things this world throws at me whether directly or through news reportage. But I only feel guilty for the things I regret doing or not doing where I recognise that I could have acted differently.
Life is hard. It need not be as hard as we make it.
Re: provocative baggy
Date: 2003-03-06 04:48 pm (UTC)I'm going to have to think my arguments through on this one if we are to have a reasonable online disagreement, Ms Bagatrice...
Give me a few days!
Thinks: Bloody Hell. What have I let loose?
(no subject)
Date: 2003-03-06 05:36 pm (UTC)I don’t think there really is a "post" Imperialism. In the sense of one country dominating and exploiting another, it has always been, and still is, the driver of global politics. Rather than angst about the past, let’s improve our present attitude to the world.
I wonder where Zimbabwe fits into all this. Back in the days, we got Smithy out of Rhodesia, eventually, as an oppressive white régime. Zimbabwe now has a far more oppressive black régime and is an economic ruin. Britain took the moral option, but it’s hard to see that it improved the situation.
Re: provocative baggy
Date: 2003-03-07 02:28 am (UTC)Seriously though, I like to hear other people's views and decide whether I agree or not thus to shape and change my own. There is always someone who knows more than me.